This the next week and Jack and Jill arrive on time. They are sitting in the waiting room reading magazines when Kilian wanders out to get them. Invited into the office, everyone takes their seats and Jack says, 

JACK: I just want to tell you that I have been thinking a lot about getting back to the old Jack. I am hopeful that will help. My question is whether Jill can put all this bad year we have had aside. It really hasn't been that long that we have been fighting. I think part of my problem is that she won't let us go back to where we were before. 

JILL: Well, you have to get back to where you were before, Jack. You're rushing things. 

KILIAN: Would it help to review where we've come so far? 

JACK: Okay, but I'm not sure I'm aware of all the topics that we have covered though. It seems to blur together. 

JILL: It is sort of that way for me, too, but maybe if we talk about it it will come back. 

KILIAN: Would it be possible to do a bit of review of some topics which caught my attention as I reviewed my notes? 

JACK: Sure! If you can lead the way. 

JILL: That sounds good. 

KILIAN: OK. Jill, I'm curious about your thoughts regarding your expectations about men in therapy, and expectations about Jack. You mentioned that you expected that men would side against you, and that Jack spoke as if he had things figured out. Have your thoughts about these topics changed at all? 

JILL: Yes, I don't think you have sided with Jack. That's what I expected. 

KILIAN: Did that have any effect on your overall expectations for men, or for therapy? 

JILL: I'll have to think about that. (Then, thoughtfully and slowly enunciated) Maybe. 

KILIAN: Could you say how? 

JILL: Well, it seems to me that you didn't just listen to Jack. You listened to him a lot, but you also listened to me. Also, I think you really understood how hard it would be for me to do what Jack wanted, to just talk and tell him things that are hard to tell, about my feelings, when he is trying to outguess me, you know, to psychoanalyze me. 

KILIAN: Is "doing what Jack wanted" something you wanted to do in your relationship with him? 

JILL: You mean talk to him about my feelings? 

KILIAN: No, I'm curious about what that phrase meant for you. 

JILL: Well, that's what it meant to me. I expected you to blame me for not talking about my feelings more with Jack. He kept psychoanalyzing me, and trying to figure out what was really going on in my head, and I just didn't want to talk about it. And when I tried, he didn't believe me anyway. He wouldn't really let me talk, either. It was just impossible. But I guess I felt you would blame me, just like Jack did, for not being more open. 

KILIAN: There's so much we could talk about here. I'm not interested in blaming. Don't think it has a place in therapy. Could I ask what it's like for you that some of these expectations of blame did not come to pass? 

JILL: Well, good, I suppose, but I'm not entirely sure it won't happen still. I mean, I'm surprised it hasn't, but.... 

KILIAN: Well, is it a little bit of a surprise, or a big surprise? 

JILL: I guess a big surprise, when I think about it. It's hard for me to believe that it won't happen again, though. I'm not sure I believe that it's a real change, if you know what I mean. Can people just change? 

KILIAN: Well, I don't know if the kind of change you've experienced here with Jack should be called "just changing." It seems like we've done a lot of work to get to this point in our conversation. But to answer your question, I think that real change can occur in peoples' lives. But it's not the same as saying that people have changed who they are. I look upon it as figuring out which road to follow, and having a choice about that. So that their partners can be surprised with what develops. Does that make any sense? 

JILL: I hope you're right, Kilian, but I still don't trust him. That is you talking, not him. But I admit he does seem a little different recently. It's just that I'm waiting for the shoe to drop anytime. 

KILIAN: Can we explore this a bit? Is it fair to say that on the one hand there's a big surprise that you haven't been blamed, and on the other hand you're waiting for the other shoe to drop? 

JILL: Yes. 

KILIAN: So how could we describe this situation where these two different situations can exist at the same time? 

JILL: I don't know what you mean. I guess just that Jack is changed but maybe not completely? Maybe not permanently? Is that what you mean? But you think the change is permanent, don't you? 

KILIAN: May I ask a question? Have you ever stepped into a totally new situation and learned how to do something you couldn't have imagined doing before? Like going to a foreign country and learning how to speak the language? 

JILL: Me? Speak a foreign language? No, not me! But I did think of something when you said that. I took an art class a couple of years ago and I was surprised how much I could learn to draw. I don't mean to say that I'm an artist or anything like that, but I'm a lot better than I thought I was. I think if I took some more classes, I might get really good even. 

KILIAN: That's exciting. Let's see if we can apply that to our discussion, shall we? If you were to draw a picture of the kind of change which accompanied your surprise at not being blamed, and in the same picture put in something which showed your fear that the other shoe might drop, and included something which showed how fluid this situation might be, how might that picture look? 

JILL: Ugh! I don't know. (laughs) I guess it would be like this. (Jill assumes a facial expression that shows surprise. Her eyebrows are lifted. At the same time her right arm is in front of her face, as if she is guarding herself against being hit.) 

JACK: (laughs) 

JILL: (laughs) 

KILIAN: (smiling) Wow! That's fantastic! Now could we add some animation to show the fluid nature of this picture? Sort of like changing proportions between surprise and fear? 

JILL: (still laughing and mugging so that she is peeking out more under her arm) You mean like this? 

JACK: (laughs silently and shakes his head. His expression seems appreciative) Peek out a little more, won't you? 

JILL: (Peeks out such a slight bit more that this is also a source of mutual laughter) 

KILIAN: (quietly laughing, appreciatively) This is rich. Is there a way that you two can come up with a name for what you've just put together, something which includes the expressions, the fun, and the back and forth between you? I could give you one suggestion - don't call it a thing, but maybe something ending in -ing, or a phrase with -ing in it. Could you give that a try? Maybe come up with a couple of ideas? 

JACK: You mean an expression for the way she is looking at me? Surprised but trying to check things out? I don't see how I'm part of that. That seems like her thing. 

KILIAN: How about when she peeked with her first "picture," and then you said, "Peek out a little more," and she did, and you both were laughing. Was that just her thing, or did the two of you do something with each other to put that together? Jill, was there anything that Jack did which helped you come up with what you just did? 

JILL: I don't know. I guess the way he looked at me. It was kinda cute. 

JACK: (laughs) 

KILIAN: So is it possible to say that whatever happened just now, the two of you did it together? 

JACK: (shrugging but smiling slightly) Yeah, sure. 

JILL: Yes, I think so. 

KILIAN: Could we go back to what the two of you might call that? Something which gets at the two of you doing it together? 

JILL: You mean give it a name? Gee, I don't know. What do you want to call it Jack? 

JACK: It feels to me kind of like flirting, but that's not it exactly. 

JILL: No is just a private, silly thing. 

JACK: It's really great, you know. Really great. If it weren't for our ability to do this, whatever you call it, well... (sneaks a look at Jill) 

JILL: (nods) I agree. It's just a fun thing we sometimes do, kinda making fun of each other, but in a good natured way. 

JACK: (nods) Right. 

KILIAN: Well, this flirting, fun thing, making fun in a good natured way certainly interests me. Remember the scene with Gene Kelly in "Singing in the Rain" where he's dancing and singing and playing in the street, with the cop looking at him as if he were half mad? Did you guys ever see that movie? For me, that scene and "Singing in the Rain" always went together. I wonder if you guys could come up with a phrase that went with your "flirting, fun, making fun in a good natured way" kind of thing. Any thoughts or ideas? 

JILL: Yeah, singing in the fight! 

JACK: (laughing, looking sheepish) Yeah, that's right. I saw the movie. (smiling broadly and shaking his head). Pretty crazy, huh. Right in the middle of our fighting, this is what we do. I never thought of it before. 

KILIAN: "Singing In The Fight." What makes you think that this is crazy? It sounds pretty interesting to me. For instance, if the two of you got caught in a fight and could remember "singing in the fight?" What might that do to the strength of the fight? Any ideas? 

JACK: I don't think it would always work. I think we do that when the fight starts wearing down. What do you think Jill? 

JILL: Probably. 

JACK: Really it has always seemed kind of magical to me. I mean we are not play acting when we fight. It's serious, but somehow we sometimes just get this lightheartedness, right in the middle of the fight. It usually means it's about over. That's what I think. 

KILIAN: Jack, what prompted you to ask Jill's opinion just now? 

JACK: I guess I just wanted to know what she thought. 

KILIAN: Is it possible to tie this in with some other themes we've covered? Like whether asking Jill what she thought challenges things like nervousness and speculation? And would you call this more typical of the old Jack or what you called the "real Jack?" 

JACK: (moving forward in his chair and scrunching his face as if he's trying hard to understand) You know, I have the feeling that what you are saying to me is extremely important -- but I'm just not smart enough to understand it or something. Do you mean that it's good to ask Jill what she thinks? I guess so. I don't know if the real Jack would do that. Maybe. Maybe. I think I don't know myself very well sometime. I think when I'm more relaxed I might be more likely to ask questions, too. Is that what you meant? But I guess the answer is that I really don't know the answer-- except it's probably good to ask Jill questions. (sits back) Ha! (lifts eyebrows in a comical way.) What do you think Jill? 

JILL: (smiling but shaking her head as if she might not quite accept what Jack is saying) I think it's only good to ask me what's going on with me if you're also willing to listen to me, too. Sometimes you ask me questions just to set me up. 

KILIAN: Jill, can you think of something which might help you determine which Jack is speaking here, and whether his last question meant that he really wanted to know what you thought? And is there a way that we can remember "singing in the fight" if we need to? 

JILL: Singing in the fight? That's just a little bit of fun, I think, in the middle of our fighting. I know it's funny, but I don't really understand it. It's fun, and it's funny. You know? But the truth is, Jack almost never wants to listen to me. He analyzes and analyzes everything and everybody and he doesn't like to listen to learn anything. Sometimes he asks questions, sure, but he does it just to set people up. Well, set me up. but i have seen him do it with his mother, too. He will ask her what she's feeling and then, when he doesn't like the answer, you know, he'll tell her what she's thinking. (turning to Jack) It's not a nice thing to do Jack. 

KILIAN: Jill, I'm a bit confused here. Do you recall that just a minute ago Jack said that he wanted to know what you thought? And that we've been talking about your surprise that sometimes Jack did not speak as if he had things figured out? 

JILL: Yes. 

KILIAN: Well, how did you go from that to what you said just now? 

JILL: Let's see. I don't know if I can explain it. But you remember that earlier JACK asked me a question, and I said something that he thought was negative, and then he got angry with me for saying something negative? Well, that's kinda the way it is sometimes. I have angry thoughts in my head, but I try not to express them, and then Jack complains that I'm too quiet. So, I do express them, and then he gets mad. So, then I don't express them. That's why we're here I think. Jack is always saying he doesn't know what else he can do, well, that's really how I feel, too. Can you see my problem? I just can't tell Jack what's on my mind because he'll get upset and then he'll put it in his words and imagine it to be, like, REALLY bad, what I'm thinking. Then, he'll start psychoanalyzing me. Like he did earlier right after I started talking just an itsy bit about what I was feeling. I can't say anything negative to him, but what can I do? I'm feeling negative. If I told him anything else, I would just be being dishonest. The only thing I can think of to do is keep my mouth shut, but then Jack complains that I don't tell him anything. 

JACK: (Sighs and there is a subtle shake of his head as if he is expressing loss of direction) 

KILIAN: But what came over you just now? This shift was so sudden, almost violent. 

JILL: Who me? 

KILIAN: Yes. What happened just now? We were talking about the effects of those times when Jack talks as if he does not have things figured out, and then something happened, something that felt horrible to me. I think we need to have a go at what that was. 

JILL: Did I do something wrong? (Sigh) I don't see what I did. I did something horrible? I thought I was doing okay. I was telling you what was going on in my head. I was talking about it. 

KILIAN: Could you provide some link between what was going on in your head and what we were talking about? 

JILL: Well, as i was saying, we were (making a comical gesture as she says) singing-in-the-fight, and then I something happened, I'm not sure what. Could we play back the tape-recorder you have there and find the spot you want me to explain? I mean, I thought I was explaining it to you just now and you seemed to think I was not, so maybe I just didn't notice what it was you wanted me to explain. If you could just find that part of our discussion and play it back to me, then maybe I could answer in the way you want. 

KILIAN: OK, here is the tape: 

KILIAN: Jack, what prompted you to ask Jill's opinion just now? << 

JACK: I guess I just wanted to know what she thought. << - 

KILIAN: Is it possible to tie this in with some other themes we've covered? Like whether asking Jill what she thought challenges things like nervousness and speculation? And would you call this more typical of the old Jack or what you called the "real Jack?" << 

JACK: (moving forward in his chair and scrunching his face as if he's trying hard to understand) You know, I have the feeling that what you are saying to me is extremely important -- but I'm just not smart enough to understand it or something. Do you mean that it's good to ask Jill what she thinks? I guess so. I don't know if the real Jack would do that. Maybe. Maybe. I think I don't know myself very well sometime. I think when I'm more relaxed I might be more likely to ask questions, too. Is that what you meant? But I guess the answer is that I really don't know the answer-- except it's probably good to ask Jill questions. (sits back) Ha! (lifts eyebrows in a comical way.) What do you think Jill? 

JILL: (smiling but shaking her head as if she might not quite accept what Jack is saying) I think it's only good to ask me what's going on with me if you're also willing to listen to me, too. Sometimes you ask me questions just to set me up. 

KILIAN: Jill, can you think of something which might help you determine which Jack is speaking here, and whether his last question meant that he really wanted to know what you thought? And is there a way that we can remember "singing in the fight" if we need to? 

JILL: Singing in the fight? That's just a little bit of fun, I think, in the middle of our fighting. I know i's funny, but I don't really understand it. It's fun, and it's funny. You know? But the truth is, Jack almost never wants to listen to me. He analyzes and analyzes everything and everybody and he doesn't like to listen to learn anything. Sometimes he asks questions, sure, but he does it just to set people up. Well, set me up. but i have seen him do it with his mother, too. He will ask her what she's feeling and then, when he doesn't like the answer, you know, he'll tell her what she's thinking. (turning to Jack) It's not a nice thing to do Jack.>> 

end  tape recording  68

KILIAN: OK, Jill, could you say what you think happened in this section of tape? Here are some questions: What do you think about the way that you and Jack were talking just prior to this segment? What would you say the general mood or tone was before this section? Did something happen in this section which marked some kind of change or shift for you? If so, could you say what that was? 

JILL: Yes, I see what you want -- I think. When Jack lifted his eyebrows and said and asked me what I thought, it just felt to me that he was setting me up. I don't know, in the past, that is what I have thought. Maybe it is unfair to him. Do you think so? I know he is trying to change, but, still, he has psychoanalyzed me so much I just don't know if people can really change that much. I mean, it would be wonderful if he could, if he could let me tell him what I'm feeling instead of him telling me, but I'm suspicious. I don't really think it's my fault that I'm suspicious. He has many times gotten into my head like that. It is hard for me to forget the things he has said, hard for me to trust him to let me talk for myself. I want to trust him, but it isn't easy. 

KILIAN: Thank you, Jill, that gives us something we can address. Jack, if you considered the alternative of asking Jill honest questions and engaging in behavior of setting her up, which of those two options would you prefer? 

JACK: When I ask her questions about what she's thinking she doesn't tell me anything. What am I supposed to do? I think anybody would start guessing what the other person is feeling if they didn't tell them. 

KILIAN: OK, Jack, I'm sorry. I rushed into that question. Can I do something similar with you which I did with Jill. Let's go back to a place in the session where the two of you seemed to be getting along, at least a little. Can we do that? 

JACK: Sure. 

KILIAN: OK, here is the segment. << 

KILIAN: "Singing In The Fight." What makes you think that this is crazy? It sounds pretty interesting to me. For instance, if the two of you got caught in a fight and could remember "singing in the fight?" What might that do to the strength of the fight? Any ideas? 

JACK: I don't think it would always work. I think we do that when the fight starts wearing down. What do you think Jill? 

JILL: Probably. 

JACK: Really it has always seemed kind of magical to me. I mean we are not play acting when we fight. It's serious, but somehow we sometimes just get this lightheartedness, right in the middle of the fight. It usually means it's about over. That's what I think. 

KILIAN: Jack, what prompted you to ask Jill's opinion just now? 

JACK: I guess I just wanted to know what she thought. 

KILIAN: So Jack, what informs the situations when you want to know what Jill thinks? And have you learned anything just now about what might facilitate her saying what she thinks?

JACK: Well, we have never talked about our singing-in-the-fight before. I mean, we both know we do it...Quite honestly, it's just that I felt she was in a good mood and I can ask her things when she is in a good mood. I never thought about it before, but Jill often seems like she is holding in mean things to say to me. I don't want to know what she has to say, I suppose, when she's in that kind of frame of mind. I think she also loves me. Why else would she have married me? That's the frame of mind I want her to be in when she tells me what's in her mind, I guess. Why should I listen to her just be negative? 

KILIAN: Well, I wonder whether it's more complicated than that. Take this example. Just a few moments ago Jill said, ".. it would be wonderful if he could, if he could let me tell him what I'm feeling instead of him telling me,.." and a bit later she said, "..(it is) hard for me to trust him to let me talk for myself. I want to trust him, but it isn't easy." We know that Jill is suspicious and worried, and I think that you are suspicious and worried, too. And yet, Jill wants to trust you. At least she says she does. How does this sound to you? 

JACK: Yeah, it's really weird listening to us, isn't it? Both of us guarding ourselves against being assaulted by the other. 

JILL: (assumes her singing-in-the-rain posture of holding her arm up and looking at Jack under her arm with mock suspicion). 

JACK: (laughing and holding his hands up as if to guard against her assaults.) I don't know. I don't really want to be the person that lays down my guns first, so to speak. I don't see why I have to be the vulnerable person. I have been the one doing most of the work to make things work lately. Or, that's the way it seems to me. (lifting eyebrows in a good natured self-mocking expression) How does it seem to you, Jill? Does it seem like I'm doing all the work? (laughs) 

JILL: Yes, really, except in these sessions. You really turned me off. You can't do what you did to me and not expect to pay. It's not that I was trying to be mean to you, either. I just didn't trust you, and you haven't been all that trustworthy either. You've been a real bastard. 

JACK: (the smile fades from Jack's face) See? I try to make a friendly gesture and as soon as I do, she goes from the juglar. 

JILL: (to Kilian) I feel the same way. I admit I'm still angry with him. What he did to me was wrong. I can't just ignore that. I mean, it's impossible for me to just ignore it. Even if I wanted to, and I don't, I couldn't ignore it. Jack wants me to tell him what I'm thinking and when I try to do that, he gets all defensive and upset. He really won't let me talk at all. He says he wants me to talk, but the truth is he doesn't. He doesn't want me to say what I think, he wants me to say what he thinks I should think. 

KILIAN: Can we put what you've just said into some kind of statement? Some kind of story which predicts what Jack wants? Something like :"He says he wants me to talk, but the truth is he doesn't. He doesn't want me to say what I think, he wants me to say what he thinks I should think ?" 

JILL: Okay. That's about how I see it. 

KILIAN: What does this story predict will happen, now that you're speaking what you think in here?" 

JILL: I do keep trying in here, but he just won't listen. I mean, it seems to me that he's going to listen, but when push comes to shove, he just doesn't --not yet, anyway. It's hard to keep trying, but, you know Kilian?, I feel good about trying in here. If you can help me keep trying I will. I just have to say what I think, though, not what I'm supposed to think. It's just very hard to talk over Jack. At least it is for me. 

KILIAN: Jill, can we extend our idea of story here? Is it fair to say that the story that says "He says he wants me to talk, but the truth is he doesn't. He doesn't want me to say what I think, he wants me to say what he thinks I should think ," also says "When push comes to shove he just won't listen?" 

JILL: Yes. 

KILIAN: OK, would you say that this is a story which brooks no exceptions? 

JILL: Good question. Let's see. (She lifts her arm and takes the singing-in-the-fight posture, and laughs a little. Then lowers her arm and immediaely assumes a more serious expression.) I really don't think he has listened to me at all. Maybe in here, a little bit. Coming in here he has listened to me more than he ever has. (a little silence, while she looks down at her hands) I just feel that I can't talk when he is pressuring me like that. (Looking up at Kilian) This is a really, really bad problem that we have. Therapy may be helping us with it a little bit, but I think Jack has never really listened to me. Maybe he doesn't really know how. (Looking down again and mumbling unintelligibly under her breath -- looking up again) I don't know what else to say. I think he doesn't ever listen, except maybe in here. At least he doesn't listen to me. 

KILIAN: Well, we started this session talking about your original expectation that men would side against you. Is it fair to say that we've challenged that somewhat? 

JILL: Yes, I would say you have. 

KILIAN: I have? I'd say that the three of us have challenged that. Can you guys see that? 

JILL: Yes. 

JACK: You mean the two of us haven't sided up? That's certainly true. She can't blame us for that. 

KILIAN: Jack, do you think that what we've done here would've happened without Jill's cooperation? 

JACK: What do you mean? I don't see what she did. We didn't side together, and we gave her a chance to be heard. What am I missing? 

KILIAN: The difference between a three-way collaboration and a gang-up. I guess we'll have to leave that for next week. Any final thoughts? 

KILIAN: (chuckling) See you next week.